I am what I choose to become? Is this true about people?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by kittymeow, Sep 13, 2007.

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  1. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    Do you agree with this statement? So lets say your on top of your game in your relationship, work, friends, on day. Then the next you feel tired, for whatever reason, then the next angry because you find you don't have time for yourself. Next thing you know violence happens ( note this is not realistic but is just for example ) and you are in jail and can never be the same person you once were because no one will let you. You feel that you were a alright person but you don't want to be that person anymore because that person is ignored. You become violent ( could be other besides physical ) because that what you chose to become. Some might blame it on another entity but when people do things its because they decided to that and not because of some influence. Bad seed, for example, a girl was look upon as a great young girl but when alonbe she kills but always makes it everyone elses fault that they had to die. She could not she herself as a killer althought that is what she made herself. I am trying to say something but I cant remember so maybe clarification being suggested will spark something. Also a criminal changing there ways is possible because you are what you choose to become. Its just that some people do not trust and beileve in change.
     
  2. bladeoftalwar

    bladeoftalwar Level IV

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    well i guess in some situations it can be true. in fact, maybe for a lot of situations

    remember back in the day, "I want to become an astronaut!". i chose to become it, but since I'm not gifted in rocket science, it just doesnt work out :p
     
  3. she_devil101

    she_devil101 Level IV

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    Sometimes you just get thrown into things.

    Ever see It's A Wonderful Life? George always wanted to travel and see the world but with his father's death and his brother going to college, he ends up having to take over the family business and gets stuck doing what he hates.

    :)
     
  4. junkant

    junkant Level III

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    You can choose to become anything but are you going to be able to follow through?
    Sometimes you won't because of other forces, people and events.
    Just like the two examples given above.

    Also some people don't have a choice and become something they hate. T_T
     
  5. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    I see what you mean but personally I feel in certain situations people do have a choice. Its just that they choose what is best for everyone or society. As the beforehand mentioned about the person wanting to see the world but the father died. He could have forgot about his responsibilities and still have gone to explore but morally he probably knew putting his own wants before others needs is selfish. Dead beat parents, for example, choose not to be there for their kids instead of owning up to their responsibilities. Everyone have a choice as long as there is no physical force preventing them or "moral obligation".
     
  6. she_devil101

    she_devil101 Level IV

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    Well I suppose if you want to call it a choice between abandoning your family or being a selfish jerk.. then technically you're right.
     
  7. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    Well, if you're saying that the person you are right now is due to the the choices you yourself have made, I would disagree with that. We are influenced by what surrounds us, by the people we hang out with, the tv shows we watch, and there are many factors that make us who we are. Some things are beyond our control. You do make decisions, which do contribute to who you are. Even when you were a kid, your parents chose many things for you. They chose which school you should go to, which can make a big difference according to the school's structure and motto. Parents generally play a big part in who you become I've seen in the news a dad teaching his kids how to shoplift, and it was caught on camera. Are you saying that when that person is an adult, and he is stealing, that it might have been because he wasn't taught about morality and why he should obey the law? Granted, they aren't the only things that affect you, but they play a big part
    Yeah, it is possible for a criminal to change their ways. But you have to understand what made them become criminals in the first place. It's possible a friend introduced them to drugs, and he wasn't aware of its addictive properties, so now to fuel the addiction he has resorted to mugging people. Did you know there are certain people who are genetically or psychologically predisposed to addiction and are more likely to become addicted? Drugs take over parts of the brain involved with motivation and reward, hence the "high". Drugs can also affect your neurological pathways. And this isn't so reversible as one might think, a man may 'choose' to stop doing drugs, but it is much harder than just choosing. That was just one situation. In the opera Les Miserables, Jean Valjean stole a loaf of bread to feed his sister's son. What drove him to that was a situation, which wasn't necessarily best for everyone or society, but was best in that particular situation.
    So the situations we do choose, are to do with the morals we gain as we progress through life, which has been influenced by things. You say it was a moral obligation. Like I said before, you don't define what all your morals are. If that man's father was abusive, and the man loathed his father, he might not have felt obligated at all to stay for his father. I haven't seen the movie though.
    The choices we make do define who you are, but its your past experiences and environmental factors that have influenced who you have become and the choices you make.
     
  8. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    [quote="commyajiWell, if you're saying that the person you are right now is due to the the choices you yourself have made, I would disagree with that. We are influenced by what surrounds us, by the people we hang out with, the tv shows we watch, and there are many factors that make us who we are. Some things are beyond our control. You do make decisions, which do contribute to who you are. Even when you were a kid, your parents chose many things for you. They chose which school you should go to, which can make a big difference according to the school's structure and motto. Parents generally play a big part in who you become I've seen in the news a dad teaching his kids how to shoplift, and it was caught on camera. Are you saying that when that person is an adult, and he is stealing, that it might have been because he wasn't taught about morality and why he should obey the law? Granted, they aren't the only things that affect you, but they play a big part

    No, what I am saying is you are what you make yourself, but don't you choose, who you hang with,what you watch, what you agree with? You are influenced by what let influence you. Also, I am a exception, when I ws a kid my parents allowed me and my brother independence so they would ask us if that is what we want and let us make our own decisions, so parents making the decisions does not apply to everything. When there ere places where they wanted to take your picture and they needed your consent my parents asked me if that was okay and I said no and that was that. I chose what school to go to, although kindergarten and such was not my choice because I personally didn'y care about what school I went to but rather about going somewhere new.

    Yeah, it is possible for a criminal to change their ways. But you have to understand what made them become criminals in the first place.

    Exactly, a person may choose to do something but are declared as being something based on the views of others. Some people can see themselves while others cannot. For example, on Steve Wilkos show there was a man who was attracted to girls 3-11 years old. He knew what he was and nothing influenced him for becoming that. He had been with women his on age, wasn't touched at a young age, or whatever statistics make a pedophile. He just decided to become one. He is in jail by the way. HE made a site that helped pedo evade the cops and later decided to take off child pics and give pedo's info to cops if needed. But unfortunately he has not changed but is still the same way. He was just a example of a person who made themself and was not influenced.


    I never heard that one before about the drugs and genes but hey, because of genes people are more likely to get certain diseases and such so I do believe that.

    In the opera Les Miserables, Jean Valjean stole a loaf of bread to feed his sister's son. What drove him to that was a situation, which wasn't necessarily best for everyone or society, but was best in that particular situation

    But was that not a moral obligation? He is the brother and thus must take care of his sister. Yet again, he could have been a jerk brother, but he knew that taking care of his sister was of importance and his job. He does not know the people he steals from so it is easy because he probably sees them as ahving much nd not really caring about a piece of bread or maybe there is more there. But it is still not the situation that makes the person but the situation helps others to percieve a person. it does not make that person.

    The choices we make do define who you are, but its your past experiences and environmental factors that have influenced who you have become and the choices you make.

    What about amnesia? Does a person who goes through that is still the person they once were? You say it is past experiences that influences a person and I do not deny that but past influences does not make the person. people assume if you were molested that you will become a molestor or be withdrawn from others. Many people have prove that wrong because people choose to live their lives and not let CERTAIN EXPERIENCES change who they are and how they are to thers. They don't let the experiences make them. They do.[/quote]
     
  9. noncheatercheater

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    It's not exactly your choice to become whatever, but your choices influence you greatly.
    The example you chose, instead of doing what he did, he could have cut back hours on work and spent time with his family instead of going on a rampage about it.

    And with things thrown at you like pink said, you could always just sell the business or find someone to do it for you while you do your own things..

    So, i don't think it's a choice of what you become, it's a choice on how you want to influence the outcome.
     
  10. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    @ kittymeow, could you learn how to quote properly? Because it looks like you just quoted me and nothing else. If you really can't find out how to, just pm me. I'd be happy to teach you.
    I am saying that your past experiences help you choose choose to make of yourself. Yes, you do choose who you hang out with. As for what you watch, I feel that decision should be decided on by your parents at a younger age. Some people that aren't mature enough are watching shows such as "Sex and the City" or "Medium" and see violent things happening or think they are psychic. Some shows are rated PG, for Parental Guidance for a reason. But, if the parents or guardians did not regulate what the child should watch, I definitely think that would make a difference. Yes, you choose what you agree with. But your past experiences help you choose that decision. Usually you make choices on what you know, on what you have learnt. If a friend says to take drugs, I personally would not because I have learnt in the past (not from experince) that while drugs may give me a 'high' in the end it is only going to be detrimental to my life. Parents making decisions does not apply to everything, but they apply to the more important aspects of your life when you are a child. Taking pictures of you is not particularly important, although it would be a nice memento as you become older. Your parents chose what kindergarten to go to, but decided to give you responsibility in choosing a school because they felt you were mature enough. It was your parents choice to let you choose. They could have taken away that freedom. So even your parents letting you make a choice or not can make a difference. In most cases, parents will choose for you until they decided that you were resonsible enough to choose. When you were a child, they didn't let you choose to eat what you wanted, do what you wanted to, and sleep when you wanted. If a parent let their child have that much freedom at a young age, they wouldn't be very responsible parents. Many children will follow their parents religion (if they have one) until they are old enough to choose their own. Parents make pretty big decisions in your life. As for the past experiences deciding what you agree with, you disagreed in another thread about a certain point, but if you had more knowledge of that certain point, i'm sure you wouldn't have made it in the first place, or even altered your opinion (see the Pictures on Smoking packets section). So past knowledge and experiences make a big difference, and parents can affect what past experiences you have.
    Yes, based on the views of others. A child will look at the sky and might say "The sky is blue because God made it that way", while a scientist would say "The sky is blue because gases in the atmospher scatter the light rays from the sun and the blue light is scattered more than the red light". A child may know that plants use the sunilght as energy to grow. A highschool student may know that it is the chlorophyll that uses the sunlight and converts it into energy. A uni student may know that there are many other things besides chlorophyll that help convert sunlight into things the plant can use through cyclic and non-cyclic chemiosmotic photophosphorylation. Say that to a kid, and a kid would go "Wahhhh??" This is because this child's past experiences are not sufficient enough to see the real reason why the sky is blue.
    We brand terrorists as horrible, people, and that the world would be better without them. I'm sure the terrorists don't see themselves that way. A man who has strapped a bomb to himself and detonates the bomb in a crowded area will do this for his religion, believing he will go to a better place. Many people believe he will go to hell, based on their religion. Others don't even believe in relgion. Most people will view blowing themselves up as "crazy". But that man who was brought up that way will see himself as a martyr. You can't say he let himself be influenced that way, or suddenly "chose" to kill himself. He killed himself for a reason, a reason he decided upon after choosing his own religion.
    Another example of past experiences affecting who you become would be the children in Germany during Hitler's reign around the World War II era. Children were taught anti-semitism in schools, there were children's picture books demonstrating anti-semitism aimed at kids who were six to eight. Intermarriage between Germans and Jews was portrayed as unnatural. They were seen as the "Killer of Christ" and that Jesus was a war hero who waged war against Jews until they killed him. Children were provided with phrases to memorize, such as "Judas betrayed Jesus the German to the Jews." German boys were taken to "camps" and taugh many things, were encouraged to fight, and their aggression was rewarded. You can't say that that won't have an affect on the people they become, and the choices they choose. They were exposed to violent movies, and then became desensitized to violence. These children were conditioned to become ruthless killers, to feel no remorse. I don't think they had a choice in what to become influenced, because of the strict system back then.
    So you are saying that man chose to become a pedophile? That he was just sitting there one day, and suddenly came up with a thought, "Hey! Kids! lt all makes sense now!". Even if he wasn't influenced in anyway, I hardly think he chose to become a pedophile. That man could have chosen NOT to act on his impulses, that was his decision. I don't know anyone that would put themselves through the trouble of becoming attracted to children. Yes, that man chose to act on his feelings, and also to even set up that website, but he didn't choose to become a pedophile.
    The same goes with your sexuality. You are saying the many homosexuals out there choose to become homosexual? No. Why would they choose to be something that is generally not accepted in the world, exposing themselves to the prejudice and scathing words of others? The choice of that homosexual is to whether keep it inside, and try to act like a heterosexual, or come out and be loud and proud. No, you don't choose to be homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. If it was that easy to just jump from here to there at a whim, I don't think those words would even exist. If a guy discovers he is gay, but is raised in a family that has strong Christian views, he might be afraid to ever come out because he has been taught that if you sleep with a man you go to hell. If that boy had been raised with gay parents, he wouldn't have that problem.
    Yes, it was a moral obligation. But if he was raised in an unruly family, and had grown to loathe and hate his sister, he would not even feel the need to care about his sister or his sister's child. So the way you are raised does make a difference.
    This is probably an example of things you don't know influencing your views. From that point, you said a person who goes through that is still the person they once were. You said that because you are not aware of the ramifications of amnesia, and put the question mark on the end because you weren't sure. One cause of amnesia is a way to protect your brain. This is called hysterical post traumtic amnesia, and this happens because of something traumatic in your past has happened, and you want to forget it. If you were the same person in the past, that wouldn't need to happen.
    There are different causes of amnesia, not just a knock to the head, but a certain part of the brain can become damaged with amnesia (hippocampus) and that person then is unable to imagine the future. The reason of this is because when a normal person pictures the future, they would use their past influences to construct what may happen. For example, if you try to imagine your friends birthday party, you would use past experiences of birthday parties to make up the event. Amnesiacs with a damaged hippcampi cannot do this.
    If a person has anterograde amnesia, this person cannot store information as long-term memory. So he forgets anything new. He is the same person, but only up to what he remembers. He cannot change, he will remain the same person. Media has presented this in "50 First Dates" where Drew Barrymore cannot remember anything up to a certain date. She remains exactly the same person, but cannot remember anything new. In this case, she hasn't changed, but only because she can remember most of her past.
    But I think you are referring to retrograde amnesia, when you can't recall some memories of the past. In most cases it doesn't totally wipe your memory, but retrograde amnesia can affect you and make you a different person. People have life changing experiences. If they forget that, then they are a different person to what they were. Amnesia commonly results from drug affects, or damage to the brain regions. The brain controls who you are, including behaviour. It also regulates hormones, which affect you.


    Being molested as a child can have huge ramifications on who you become. Yes, you can choose to power on and continue life despite it, and even become stronger because of that experience, but you can't say that the experience doesn't affect you in some way. If that was the case for everyone, you wouldn't see the Catholic church having to pay the millions of dollars to children who have been abused by Catholic priests in the media.And no, I don't assume that if you were molested that you will become a molestor or be withdrawn from others. I do feel pity on them, but I won't jump to that conclusion until I have met that certain person. But that is because I have been taught to put myselves into people's shoes. People are naturally sympathetic to people, but it is hard to be sympathetic if you don't understand that situation. You have to use your imagination, and past experiences to sympathize. Your friend's dog has died, and you can sympathize and feel sorry, because you have lost something, and can understand the feelings your friend has come from. And that molested person may not have chosen that certain experience change them as a person, but their past experiences have influenced in totality the person they have become.
     
  11. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    I guess you haven't seen my other posts because I know how. I just deleted something I didn't need to. I have a headache at how you posted that.

    Anyhows, I didn't bother with reading your objections because you are repeating the same thing ( No offense but doesn't that mean offense? ). Influence. Everyone says that a person makes a decision based off influence but it is still a choice. Influence is part of a choice. You make it seem like choice is nothing ( That is the way I interpret , it doesn't mean that is what you are saying so don't clarify). If a person decides to kill someone " its because there past have influenced them to do it". Let's say this person had no contact, nothing to affect them, nothing to influence them and they decided , "Well you need to die", you will probably say well, lack of contact, influence blah,blah ( yet again don't clarify or ask explanation ). Let's say people are ACTUALLY liberated -> Independent thinkers, persons who influence themselves. And hasn't been warped by the human world. Let's say that influence has nothing to do with a person's choice, although clearly this is barely not possible, or is it? (don't answer).

    Isolation, going within yourself, meditation. Influence is a funny word usually, in some ways but not really, associated with control. Your country influences you, your family, influences you, laws influence you, on giving Ideas on what to do and not do based on someone else's standards. Everything you say is because of what you have been taught to say, puppet
    ( not calling people puppets). Influence makes puppets, depending on what context. Being influenced makes your strings easy to see and to control you. A person can easily make you angry by offending you but what exactly offends you. A lack of self-understanding, but rather looking at what others have influenced you to see and you deciding on how it in turns relates to you based on this past. Do you choose to be offended or does the influence decides for you to be offended based on what you have experienced.

    Influence is a component (excuse mispelling) of decision making but choosing is the bigger picture. Yes, influence is a factor in making a decision but you are the final decider. I can beat you to make you say you are inferior but does that abuse make you inferior? Only if you decide to believe in others(influence) and not yourself. Being lazy and letting others make decisions for you (influence as well). No one seemed to bring up the point of well how do you decide who you are or what you are or have become. Is it society, environment, yourself? You seemed to base this debate all around " Influence and Choice" ( please excuse my repitition ). It is really a question of the general you. Now influence and choice are now a smaller part of you but how do you know who you are? ( Never mind, all I have just said is garbage, continue on debating without me....)
     
  12. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    If you knew how to quote properly, you would have quoted me properly instead of just adding your opinions at the end of mine. Yes, I did read your other posts. And you did the same thing in those ones, miquoting me and putting yourself in my quotes.
    I can't believe you said that. This is a debate. When one person stops reading the other persons points, the debate stops. It becomes an argument. When one person only wants to get his/her point across, while ignoring what the other person issaying. And how would you know if I was repeating the same thing or not? I did repeat some points, but that was only to refute your points in saying my previous points were wrong. That's just immature, in a debate. It's like putting your fingers in your ears and going "Lah Lah Lah I'm not listening lah lah lah". Read my posts. I have brought up examples to back up my points. Feel free to agree or disagree. It's a debate. Not a one way shouting spree.
    Look, I'm going to answer because this is a debate. It's not a thing where you get the last word in. What annoys me is when people totally ignore my posts, and even bring up some points that I have brought up. Look, even if that person was totally devoid of any influence, which is impossible, why would that person decide "Well, you need to die". I'm not saying it's lack of contact, influence or whatever. But there has to be a reason, some cause for that person to decide that. If they didn't have a reason, then I think there would be something wrong with their brain. And even that is a reason.
    You seem to be all over the place. You talk about isolation, then jump to another point. You then go on to say that influence is a funny word, and then disagree with yourself. I agree that influence can turn people into puppets, but that is only if a person has been influenced in everything you do. Like you said with your parents, they did choose what preschool to go to. But gave you the freedom to let you choose your own school. That encourages independent thinking. Maybe you would have turned into a puppet of your parents if they chose everything for you. Which can happen with autocratic parents. Yes, being offended is what happens based on what you've learned in the past. If people are raised to find overweight people beautiful, a thing to be idolized, and a person says "You are fat" then that person would take it as a compliment. But if you say it to someone who has anorexia, then that could cause a different reaction. When I was in year 1 in primary school, one of my teachers said "Your socks look priceless". Now I took offence because I thought that meant that they looked worthless. But now that I am older, I realize it is the opposite. Yes, your past experiences can influence whether you take offence or not.
    Yes, I agree. You make choices based on what you have been influenced by, but you have the choice. In one of my earlier points, that pedophile could not choose to be attracted to children. But he did choose to act upon his attraction, which was the wrong choice. When you said that you can beat me to make me say I am inferior, no. It does not make me inferior. But your beating me is an influence that made me say that I was inferior. I could have chosen to take the pain, and not say that I was inferior. A jury will make a decision based on the evidence. The evidence will influence them on what choice to make, along with the statements and witnesses. You can't just go "Eeny, meeny, minie mo".Look, I'm saying influences do help you decide who you become and who you are and what you are. A kid will look at a rocket launch, and then say "I want to be an astronaut and travel into space". That child was influenced by watching that launch. How do I know who I am? I am me. Nobody else is me. I have become myself based on the decisions I have chosen, as well as the decisions of others. The choices I make have been influenced by everything around me. I believe we all influence the people around us. Some for better, some for worse. And look, it is a debate. As much as you would like to say your point and just withdraw, that isn't going to happen. If rebuttal didn't exist, there wouldn't be a debate in the first place.
     
  13. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    I don't understand what you mean about misquoting you. Please explain. Never mind I forgot to copy the quote thing and the end for whenever you quoted and just let your one quote indication run for the whole thing. I understand now. I am just not use to long aned multiple quotes and usually have just one which is why I did that. Thank you because now I will make sure not to do it anymore, maybe :).


    Okay, let me clarify, I skimmed what you said, which is different from reading. I sort of was looking for the same things that you wrote in the earlier post and when I found them figured them to be like a thesis statement where the rest will be to support it. Excuse me if that annoyed you but once you said learn to quote properly I got offended and was just being doing it back. That was a childish move which is unlike me. I do apologize for that.

    Okay, the parts that I labeled don't anwer is because that was not the point I was trying to make. It was a question for you to think about not really respond to. That doesn't imply the ENTIRE post but just where that sentence is notated. Also, I am discussind the person, not the surroundings for a minute. Few parents have locked there children away from the outside world or from having friends to lessen the influence they have on them. That sort of thing. There are to many things in the world to be devoid of any contact but I was giving an example of if it a person did somehow manage to get absolutly no contact with anything. I agree with you on something being wrong possibly with a person's brain if they just decide to want to kil you. Example (this happened for real) a guy threw a paper ball really hard into my face and I kept asking why did he do it. Din't hit or threaten him but just asked what is his reason. This guy actually looked me in my eyes and said he wanted to kill me. Never said if it was the pestering of the questions I asked him or because he didn't like me ( I never really talked to him). this really scared me and made me think he hasn't been exposed to people like me, he was living in a ghetto and I do not. I speak well and know what I am talking about on certain subjects and whenever I did this I could notice some malice in his eyes.

    That paragraph probably seems random because at the last minute I decided to break it away from the sentence ahead of it. i hope reading that sentence leading into it will help you make sense of how I jumped to the next topic.

    To say my point and withdraw would mean me posting and being done with it, would it not? It wouldn't matter about you posting and responding because I would have gotten my point across. I am trying to say that I don't do that and like getting opposing views. Also, I don't like posting and getting no response because that would be boring. It is sort of my way of getting a response in making it seem like that. I love debate.

    I would also like to say again that choice is impacted by influence but not fully and that in the end you make the decision which may be based on the influence but is what you personally deem to be right. I am agrreing with the influence part not to go against myself but to say that it ties into what I am saying. Get what I mean. I am feeling better now, so I am hopefully expressing myself more easily.
     
  14. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    That's a terrible thing that happened. I'm sure you didn't provoke him or influence him in any way. But I'm also sure there was some reason he did it. You can't say he saw you and suddenly decided to kill you. Or if he even meant that he wanted to kill you. Maybe his violent demeanour was an outcome of playing too much violent games, or watching too many horror movies. But I don't think a normal person would suddenly want to kill you, for no reason. Or even throw the paper. And a smart thing to do is to tell the teacher. But yes, there could be something wrong with this guy, and is something wrong with this guy, if he meant that he wanted to kill you.
    It's good you like debating. It's good you aren't a sheep, that you have opinions.
    What you personally deem to be right...uhhh....yes...i'll repeat myself. What people personally deem to be right can be a consequence of influence. Like I said in an earlier post, suicide bombers personally think what they are doing is right. While we don't. Yes, you are expressing yourself more easily. People become less irrational when emotions are incurred.
    Thanks for posting that! Now everyone knows I have a personal PM coming up. Can't wait
     
  15. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    I was talking to our boss when it happened. It didn't happen at school but at a summer job. The boss didn't do anything and actually didn't even say anything about it except "talking to him won't make a difference", I probably should have listened. By the way, the guy that I was taking about also "enjoys" 12 year old girls, he is quite a bit older than twelve and had a run in with the law during the summer job that I was in some years back.

    Sheep doesn't have opinions, wow, I never knew that. ( Don't worry, I know that what you were saying wasn't literal.) Just sounds really (gothics, medieval ?) in what context you used it.

    Irrational how? I think I still fully had a understanding of what I meant to say but I wasn't able to say it in a clear way. Is that what you mean? Becoming irrational due to emotion means that you appear irrational or that you are irrational in your thinking? I just need your explanation because I'm not understanding. I did notice you said less so that does mean that it is just a step or so behind and not completely.

    Now with the suicide bomber thing is going back to the debate ( or maybe will make a good next debate) on what exactly is good or bad. There is no good or bad in my opinion. I was thinking about how when I was younger that I was disgusted with the idea of grown men taking brides as young as 11 years old but realized that it is not "bad" that they do it. Others might find america's "18 and your okay" motto to be disgusting. I still find 18 to be young. Yet, what is exactly to young? Not being able to think clearly for yourself and make decisions. There are people who are even as old as 74 who still cannot do that. Maybe young is in the age. Many have heard of ,13 going on 30, ( not the movie ) or where younger children are thinking and growing independently. But getting back on the subject, until there is a common idea or standard for "ggod and bad" then I can't say that there is one. The standard in one country will not be the standard for another country but is useful for people who aren't planning to experinece other nations.
     
  16. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    Yes, then he is a disturbed guy. Still, you can't say he 'chose' to like girls.
    Well, I don't know which country you come from, but I guess being from Australia we know a bit more about sheep?? Well here's an amusing site that will explain. http://www.sheep101.info/flocking.html
    What I meant by sheep not having opinions is that they'll happily follow the leader.
    Well, becoming irrational due to emotion could have an effect on what you were thinking and what you were typing. Road rage is an example how emotion can alter your judgement. Irrational, I meant that because of your emotion you were not able to make your point as well as you would have it you weren't so full of emotion. Now, if that isn't true, then you can say it wasn't. As for saying less, there was less to debate, so of course I said less. Less new points were brought up.
    Yeah, but the point of the suicide bombers was to point out that different upbringings can make people make different choices. I'm sure you wouldn't willingly choose to become a suicide bomber, and that's because of the way you were brought up. In the lifestyle you live. If you were brought up somewhere that objectified becoming a suicide bomber as an extremely holy thing, and that you would go to paradise, you may want to become a suicide bomber. The choice to become one, was influenced by the lifestyle. Well I have a standard for good or bad, but not everyone would think that. But would it be safe to say that psychopathic murderers are bad?? I'm pretty sure that that is a common ideal.
     
  17. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    I was just explaining more about the guy to help give a general understanding of what type of character he has. I wasn't really indicating it as supporting my reasoning but just to tell you more about it due to what your response to it was.

    No, I do understand about sheep herding and everything. Its just that I was thinking about a movie where a person says "yes, come on little sheepies" or something like that when they were tricking people into basically going to there deaths although they were panicking. That is why in parenthesis I said I know you were not meaning literally sheep has no opinion. The movie line threw me off.

    Well yeah, I gave an example saying just that, so I got the picture (young brides ring a bell?). I would have to say decide on different choices rather then make different choices because I think some people do think about what should be done in another country since it is different from there own, like when they look up laws and such. Example of this is that some people know pot is okay in countries besides their own as well as drinking so even though they were brought up to believe that these things are bad some still decide to go into other countries to indulge themselves. Upbringing can either be what a person decides to live by or defy.

    Oh yes, I have the same thing like I don't agree with animal slaughter. This could be because I am vegetarian and latter became a somewhat animal rights activist. I do find that murderers are looked at as sick but the position of the murderer
    can make a difference. In another post I wrote about how people in high positions are looked at differently when they do a crime and are often forgiven. In Europe, back in the day, the king or the rich could buy absolution and basically not be looked at as sick and twisted for killing someone. People were sacrificed to gods and everyone in that community had no issue except the person being sacrificed and there family. Fortunately overall standards change but personal either does or does not. Other murderers might say " oh,your okay" depending on the nature of the murders. Isn't interesting hiw in jail, rapists, expecially of children, are actually killed by murders who think they are sick for doing that. Even murderers have ethics codes. Murders being bad as a common ideal is probably for non-murders as well as murders who are not psychopathic.

    Did you see a how on t.v. where a group of young boys were in a correctional facility for killinmg people and thinking it was alright. Many cried after seeing what they did to people but there were some who believed they did nothing wrong and that it was fun. What do you think of people who don't want to be helped and won't allow themselves to change into a better person? How should they be dealt with?
     
  18. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    No worries
    Well, if sheepies give you the creepies try this http://www.apple.com/trailers/independe ... altrailer/
    Well, those are pretty different situations. The kids who were brought up and chose to do drugs in another country chose to defy it. But because of some upbringings, those kids aren't given the choice. Like the guys marrying pre-teen girls. Those girls don't have a choice do they?
    Well I'm sure something influenced you, something you saw on the news that made you decide to become vegetarian, or maybe you heard how animals are killed. Or even how much blood is in gravy (that's how one of my friends became one).
    Maybe not forgiven, but since they were at a high seat of power they weren't questioned. People would see him as a sick and twisted king, but if they can't do anything about it, they keep to themselves, and that's why people would see them as agreeing. Rebellions happen because people don't agree with people of higher authority.
    Much like the suicide bombers, being sacrificed would bring honour and respect to the family. The person being sacrificed might be honoured. It all depends on how they see it. They might react in the way that you said, but that isn't the only way. And that is another example of how different beliefs and communities can affect the way people think.
    I haven't read about child molesters being killed in jail by murderers. But you can see how a man's set of morales can affect how he acts.
    I haven't seen or read that in the news. If you could give me a link to an article I'll give you an opinion on it.
     
  19. kittymeow

    kittymeow Level II

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    I am officially a fan of sheep. that was insane. You should post more stuff like that but maybe in spam corner.
    No, they do not. Just like in earlier times when young girls in various places had to be circumcised because they were told no man will marry you or you will not be beautiful. The girls who decided they did not want to do it would be ostricized by their own group and would often be forced to do it or have to flee. People are sometimes confortable with fitting in so they make their choice depending on the consequences or the benfits. Many decisions are almost always influenced by something. Even some personal decisions are made by "gut feelings". I still stand by the idea that people chose there situation when no physical, moral obligation, or traditions are involved. I just don't feel that influences define personal identity but rather the choices that are made based off the influences is what alt least defines a person to others and sometimes others who define themselves by what others think of them.
    Good thing I never liked gravy. Anyhow I became a vegetarian, well i saw a cartoon called Braceface and even though they did not show the process I found out that my parents lied to me about what happens to the animals when i asked them a long time ago. I later got on PETA tv and that was the straw that broke the scarecrow's stitching. I made my decision based on the fact that I was believing a lie for 2 years ( I asked when I was 10 ) and beore I saw wat actually happened ( the peta site). I wasn't really influenced by the show but it is what help me decide that what my parents were telling me were a lie. I decided on my own to be vegetarain. I rarelyate meat in the first place and it gave me an excuse to not have to eat that dreaded meatloaf that my motherwould make. I guess in a way i decided as a means of escape, so it is in part because of my experiences but the final was mu own personal belief in what is right or wrong since my entire family on both sides are meat-eaters and enjoy it very much.
    Unfortuantely, when they would overthrow a government they did not agree with, like french revoltuion and others, they usually would become what they hated in the first place and it is a repeat, like what happened with others interpretation of communism.
    You ever heard of Jeffrey Dahmer,He is American, who had relation with and killed young boys and men and even though he changed in jail the prisoners were so disgusted with his killing and eating taht they immediately killed him.
    This site tells you the story and is interesting in how it exlpores everything about killers. Interesting and scary at the same time. http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... index.html
    Not what I was talking about but is sort of similar is this http://www.danielstarr.com/movabletype/ ... _so_1.html
    I will keep looking for something better or the show I've seen.
     
  20. Commy

    Commy Moderator
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    Well I think you're just agreeing with what I posted a while back, which is
    I'm glad you could see things my way
    The show must have influenced you in some way, even if a little. It wasn't the defining thing that made you vegetarian, and although it wasn't the final straw that broke the scarecrow's stitching, it was definitely a part of it. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it.
    If the rebels ideals are different then the governments they are overthrowing, there can be great changes. You mentioned the French Revolution, it was originally a monarchy, and after the revolution there was a great difference, with principles for the republic, and fundamental rights not based on human power. I'd say that was a great difference, and after the revolution their may have been a dictatorship, but that was also overthrown, and the constitution written.
    I haven't heard of him, but I did read those chapters. Dahmer had these sick fantasies, there was something mentally wrong with him. But it shows how people with the same disgust would react in different ways, because of the situation they are in, and the way they have been brought up. But let me quote the article
    This shows he was mentally ill. But he still could make choices. Which might support the argument "I am what I choose to become" but also supports that there was a reason he did it.
    As for the prisoners killing him, it wasn't just any prisoner, like ones who rob a convenience store. First of all he was kept away from the general public for a period of time, for his own safety. Then he was given some freedom, and given janitorial work with two men. He was paired up with I'll quote
    . He was left alone with these two. If it were two other inmates, the results might have been different. They didn't immediately kill him. Maybe the prisoners as a whole wanted to kill him, but it was two previous murderers that did the job, and one of them had a great reason to be bias against him.
    Well this was an example of soldiers being trained, becoming desensitized to violence. The fact that they could switch it on and off the bloodlust is further proof of influences affecting choices.
     
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