I want any religious person that believes in God to explain this to me. It is a massive flaw in any belief in an omnipotent being, and I would like to see someone attempt to counter it without relying on that awful, terrible cop-out; "God works in mysterious wablahblahblah" So. God is omnipotent, and can see everything that ever has happened, and ever will happen. If God can see everything that ever will happen, then he knows what is going to happen before it happens. In order for this to be possible, events must be in some way pre determined. If events are pre determined, then either our choices don't matter or our choices have already been made for us. Either way, it means we don't really have free will, which is one of the first and supposedly the most precious of the "gifts" bestowed upon humanity by God. So, either we have free will and God cannot possibly see into the future and is therefor not omnipotent and by that conclusion, not really a "god" in the traditional sense, OR God is a God and we have no free will and our lives are pointless. OR There is no God. Which of these is true? If it's none, please present a well written counter argument that does /not/ rely on cop outs such as "just because you don't know how God works" and "God has special plans for all of us" and all that nonsense that religious people use when backed into a corner by that dreadful bane of all organised religion; rational thinking.
no where does it say god will see what will happen. only only says he sees and knows that he knows what has happened... also challenging people on there beliefs (which is what this post is) is not cool and pretty sure against the rules on this site and def against proper educate of society .... and to explane that further you were showing extreme bias in this post and truly showing your feelings on how its stupid to believe in god when Im guessing you have very little knowledge about the Christan religion as showed buy the god can tell the future comment .. examples both examples of extreme bias that clearly could your open views Thomas Aquinas acknowledged difficulty in comprehending a deity's power. Aquinas wrote that while "all confess that God is omnipotent...it seems difficult to explain in what God's omnipotence precisely consists." In the scholastic understanding, omnipotence is generally understood to be compatible with certain limitations upon a deity's power, as opposed to implying infinite abilities. There are certain things that even an omnipotent deity cannot do. now "To all non religious bias people: Explain this to me" how can you have such a strong bias to something you don't understand...
Good, so you've found the Theodicee problem. It's the major philosophic issue that religions encounters. The counter argument for this is that you and I, with our simple human minds, are not able to comprehend the world in the same way as an omnipotent God. If you are not able to see the timeline/eternity, you don't know what will happen. If you, unlike God, isn't pure goodness (sounds yummy, eh?) you don't know what events uncontrolled by humans that works out for the good. The cop out Masterplan isn't really a cop out, it's a valid argument. If God knows what we will do, then he may change the events so that it works out to the good. God doesn't need humans to be good, just because God might be good since there might be different definitions for us. The real problem is how it's all debated. One side argues from a philosophical view of the problem while the other argues from a scientific view. This debate should be kept under philosophy so that both sides have a mutual arena where the problem is sorted out. Either the Masterplan argument is the end of the debate, or the discussion can be furthered by philosophical proof that the argument fails. I'd like to see you try and take on the problem, since you're interested in the topic.
I believe that image sums up everything that counters religion and the belief of God. Why religious people haven't given up is unknown to me :/ I think people just follow a religion and believe in god as a way to counter insecurity. If it was proven there was no higher being, no afterlife, no anything.. can you imagine the ruckus that would be created?
that image sums up nothing as virre said how do you know that he doesn't control everything and its all part of his master plan.. we are just not able to understand it as mere mortals... Or maybe its gods will to let us run our self's and let us control our own density... remember if you believe in god its you that ow your life to god not god ow his to you. Or maybe God lets the evil in this world to show him that man is not perfect and we do have errors but it is the ones that comment to the faith that will be blessed with eternal life.. other wise how would you separate the good form the bad if he has to control everything? see you guys present one argument and i present 3 back in a debate im killing you guys now (me and and virre )
Ok, before I continue, I need to make this very clear: I do NOT believe in god in any way, but I am very interested in the philosophical shit in Judaism (I'm also a jew myself ). We've talked about this issue countless times in class (we are taught ABOUT our religion in school...nobody tells us what we should believe in though ). What any great Rabbi would tell you, is that we have our own choices in life, but god knows what choices we will make. God doesn't DECIDE for us what choice we'll make, he only KNOWS what it will be. An example: Timmy is lost on his way home to school, should he take a left turn, or a right turn? God knows that Timmy will take the left turn, but he didn't DECIDE Timmy will take the left turn. It just so happens, Timmy has an "Always Go Left" policy, based on his experiences in life. It is COMPLETELY Timmy's decision, god just KNOWS what it will be. I know that was kind of a strange analogy...but you get what I'm trying to say...right? And to Will and his post: I've known that picture for a long time (it's hillarious by the way ) and I can honestly and truly say it fucking PWNS any Judaist/Christian belief I am sure if you talk to a Rabbi, or the Pope, they'll have some sort of explanation like "God has his own plans and thoughts, theres meaning behind everything he does". Meh, who knows? Religion sucks anyway xD
see another miss understanding... no where in the bible or any other text (you name it ive read it) does it say god knows what we will do.. he only knows what we have done in the present and the past... it is not his "job" to control us but only to judge our auctions when we die
Virre explained how agnostic people can get around this problem not how people of a specific religion can. Take Christians for example how can Christians believe in every tiny detail of the Bible which essentially says what God wants and think that God is too complex to comprehend? Any organised religion is bizarre to me because if there was an almighty being why would we know what it wants from us... if it wants something from us. I'm studying Chaucer at the moment and he put a bit of Philosophy in the Canterbury Tales. There are 3 approaches to this question: Free Will - We have complete control over what we do and well basically have free will. Conditional Necessity - Events are predetermined but you have the power to change them (Normally via dreams, intuition ect. it's very Final Destination) Simple Necessity - Events are predetermined. (I may have muddled up the necessities I'm too lazy to check xD) Basically conditional necessity gets around our little problem but since medieval dream theory isn't very popular now my point is mildly obsolete. I suppose my argument would be why does it have to be predetermined? God could know the future but why does he/she/it have to know one future why can't God know 1000000000000s of futures which are all vastly different because of the free will choices people make. That way God does know the future but we have free will. Or God could simply know what choices we are going to make which is our free will, just because God knows what choices we will make doesn't mean they aren't our own free will it just means God knows us and what choices we will make. Basically predetermined doesn't mean free will doesn't exist I could order a beef burger and then decide I just wanted a Coke I just made that decision of my own accord but God knew I would change my mind he/she/it didn't influence me God just knew. This post is structured rather strangely I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say xD
No, I have a tremendous amount of knowledge of Christianity. I was born to a Catholic family and raised as a Catholic untill I challenged the things about it that make no sense, starting at around the age of 13. First of all, I would suggest that you read the Bible yourself (or supposing your have already read it, revise it) before you challenge my knowledge of it. I spent a good amount of my childhood in Sunday School and I've read the thing from cover to cover. Let me tell you and remove all doubt; there are several instances in which the Bible claims God knows all that ever was and ever shall be, that before a man makes a choice his path is already chosen. Should you require proof, feel free to use Google. Should you require me to provide proof, I would be more than glad to do the same. Now then, let me make this abundantly clear to avoid any further missunderstandings. I am challenging no one's faith. I made this thread hopefully see a valid counterargument from a religious person that did not depend on the standard cop-outs (and yes, they are cop outs. If a religious person were involved in a debate with a person on the topic of evolution, and the person siding for evolution simply responded "cuz its sience lul", there religious side would be all over it as a cop out, and it's the same thing). At no point did I claim that I wasn't biased. I am biased, in fact. The fact is that no one could possibly understand the workings of a supposed God and such is the reliance of the church. I made this thread to ask for your theories or what explanations you have been given in the past to counter this logical argument. What you have presented me with is barely short of whining about the way I went about asking the question. If you have a valid retort I would be delighted to read and discuss it.
Note to all: Excuse the multiple posts in a row. I wanted to clearly define to whom I was replying and it wouldn't be so simple in just one post. Please understand that this is not an attempt to rack up cash and if a moderator should so choose to remove the cash obtained from this post and any others thereafter, I would certainly not object. I'll ask you (and others) to excuse me if I sound agressive when I reply, especially because it is clear you've attempted a very reasonable reply here. I'm not attempting to belittle you, simply to counter your arguments and hopefully receive a challenging reply. I believe the "master plan" cop-out to be precisely that; a cop-out. If, when presented with an argument, your only option is to respond with "well you don't understand it", you are indeed without a valid response. Even suggesting that God is not bound by the same laws as the rest of us or that he exists parralel to our time does not draw away from the fact that in order for him to know what will happen it must be in some way predetermined. Again, implying that God has some kind of plan for us that we unknowingly adhere to detracts from the theory that we have free will. You'll also note, that when asked why God would allow pain and suffering in the world, that religious people will respond that it is a result of free will; to give our choices consequence. As you and any other person with an education greater than that of an infant will also know, there was supposedly no pain in the Garden of Eden, and yet still, the choice was made to eat the apple and pain was bestowed upon the world as a punishment, thus bringing with it free will. You'll also notice, upon reading this tale, that it was supposedly Lucifer, the devil, that goaded them into eating from the forbidden tree. Does this mean that there was no free will before the apple, and that they were destined to take it? Does it mean that free will came after the apple? And then surely, in either case, free will and the consequences of our actions came as a result of the devil's doing. If the Bible is to be interpreted literally as so many demand it is, then it is virtually inarguable that our greatest gift, free will, came as a result of the devil's actions. Does that make free will evil? Did we ever have it in the first place, and do we have it now?
I spent 4 years leading a youth group 5 years as an apocalyte in the church. have done many religion classes, ive rread the bible im guessing more times then anyone here.. you stopped short of saying that they were stupid arguments and had no meaning the spots in bold out anyone would fine abrasive. The all the ever will be imply that god is internal and shall be around til the end of the world.. the word shall shows that if it said he knows the future it will say all that is or something along the lines of that again MY argument is god isnt here to make our futures but judge us on the choices we made/make in life not to shape it... this is conspired the general response in fact this is what the pope him self says.. we have free will but hes there to judge us on the free will that we deride to live.. and THAT is the "role" of god
I know, I saw that bit. I'm not challenging it. What I'm asking is, do you concede that God does not know what we are going to do before we do it, or do you believe he does? Note that I'm not asking if you believe wether or not God makes the choices for us.
Just the fact that the bible says that God "knows all things" makes me think that "all things" would include everything, not just some things like the past and current but everything 'cause God wouldn't seem very powerful if like the rest of us, he's bounded by time (in which case time would then seem to be higher up in the hierarchy). But that's just what the bible says. I'm rather skeptical about the Bible. If there were to be a God, how would we insignificant humans, be able to understand anything about God?
Thank you. It's refreshing to see a religious person answer a question so directly, rather than trying to spin it off into something more contrived.
Well, just responding to prayers doesn't mean he has to grant everything we ask for. God doesn't even respond to the people who's prayers he supposedly grants. It'd be pretty cool to be praying for a lottery win only to hear a booming voice exclaim; "I AM SO SICK OF THIS, EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT, SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP"
Yeah, but 'tis the most common religious question.. so I just felt like asking it I remember a good answer being 'Yes, but sometimes the answer is no'. lolwut